Happy Friday!
Welcome to my new podcast series called 30 Minutes in Heaven, where I interview and chat with cool writers about their creative work and the latest hot topics in pop culture and the book and media industries. The idea of 30 minutes in heaven is a riff on the overall concept of my newsletter, which is transcendence. You know when you’re talking to someone who you admire and respect and the conversation is really good and you feel your brain kind of changing and sparking just taking in all the info and you leave the conversation a little bit different than before you started? Almost like you’ve transcended into a new plane of existence? Well, this podcast series will probably not give you that. But it’ll give you something tangential to it! I’ll try my very best to make it so! As close to 30 Minutes in Heaven as you and I’ll ever get, exclusively via my newsletter Transcendent :).
First up, I’m proud to interview debut novelist
. We chatted back in April 2023 and I’m so thrilled I can finally share our conversation."Forget what you know about mermaids," starts Chinese-American writer Jade Song's debut novel, Chlorine. A cross between a literary coming-of-age narrative and a dark unsettling horror tale, the book follows Ren Yu, a competitive high school swimmer, who pushes her body to the limits every day in pursuit of an athletic scholarship. The book addresses puberty, adolescent sexuality, and Chinese immigrant mother-daughter relationships. As the story progresses, the mermaid fairytales from Ren’s childhood begin to intertwine with her present and the lines between fantasy and reality begin to blur.
The book was published on March 28th, 2023 to rave reviews from Vanity Fair, The Boston Globe, The Guardian, and Buzzfeed News (rip). It truly is one of the best books of 2023. Jade also created a super cool Instagram moodboard account for their book that captures the book's aesthetic, which is if Wong Kar Wai meets The Little Mermaid but is queer and Chinese. You should totally check it out, wherever books are sold. Read more about the book's IG account in this Dirt article. In this interview, Jade and I talk about their debut novel, their history as a competitive swimmer, their thoughts on “the career writer” and their love for the K-pop group BTS.
You can listen to the interview by playing it here directly in your email inbox, on the Substack website or app, or via podcast platforms like Spotify Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, etc. You can also read the transcription of the interview below.
Teresa Tran: Hi Jade!
Jade Song: Hi, I love your hair.
TT: Oh my god, thank you. It was originally blue, but I accidentally dyed it green a couple of days ago. So it's in transition mode.
JS: Do you like it? I think it looks amazing.
TT: Thanks! I don't know if you're going to the Suga concert in a few weeks, but I want to get it blue-blue before that.
JS: Oh my god, I'm so fucking jealous. You're gonna have an amazing time. So fucking good.
TT: Yeah, I'm so excited. I'm counting down the days. How are you? Thank you so much again, for agreeing to meet with me. And congratulations on launching your book.
JS: Thank you. Unfortunately, because of the book launch, I could not make it to any Suga concerts. But I'm very happy and excited for you that you get to go. But otherwise, I'm doing well. So thank you.
TT: You’re doing great? That’s amazing. I saw you just came off of launching your book in Brooklyn and Pittsburgh. I wanted to ask what that experience was like. And how does it feel now to have the book out in the world?
JS: Yeah, I felt very, I think I was taken surprise the first two months before the launch date by how much pressure and stress and anxiety there was in terms of both the workload that I was expected to do. And just the knowledge that the book was about to be out. But now that I'm, I think, two to three weeks out from the book actually being out in the world and having those two launch events over… I mean Chlorine found the readers who needed to find and the knowledge that people love the book and that it's making them feel less alone and that it's making them feel seen or that their anger is justified, like, that's all that really matters in the end. And I did have, I mean, I think I was very nervous for both launch events, but the knowledge that I got through them and was very eloquent and could perform well. And people showed up for me, both my friends and strangers. It was just like, yeah, it was a very rewarding, great experience.
TT: Aw, I loved that! The photos looked great!
JS: Thank you (Laughs). I put my men to work.
TT: I wanted to ask what first got you into writing. This is like a typical question, right? Every writer has their beginning or like their moment where it's like, oh, this is like, now I'm obsessed with this. So I wanted to know what made you first get into writing?
JS: Yeah, to be honest, I didn't even think writing was a thing that people did until January 2020, which is when my friend was randomly like, hey, do you want to join my writing group? Because I, you know, love to read. And I was like, oh, writing groups exist. People write. And I frankly, like truly, I did not know writers or authors were like a thing, because I loved books so much that to acknowledge that they were written by humans would have like broken that love for me because humans had always let me down, but books had never, books were my best friends growing up, like fictional characters. So that kind of shift in thinking was very surprising for me. But once I started, I think because I had had such a long background and like reading so many different kinds of books constantly, it just kind of came from me. But I do like that I've been an artist my whole life and I consider writing just part of my artistic practice because it does come from the same sort of part of my brain. So yeah.
TT: Oh, I love that. I love that. Can you walk me through your journey of writing Chlorine specifically? So you said you started in January 2020. I wanted to ask how long did it take you to write it? And then when did you feel like it was ready to be like, hey, I think I'm gonna like put it out there and look for an agent, like all of that.
JS: Yeah, so I started writing January 2020. I started writing Chlorine summer of 2020. And then I had been publishing some short stories that agents had been interested in. But it wasn’t until halfway through the second draft of Chlorine when the agent that I signed with, DongWon, reached out because of the story they had really, really liked. And they were honestly like my dream agent, but because they worked mostly in the fantasy and sci-fi space, I didn't think we would be the best fit.
But the longer I worked on Chlorine and the longer I thought about publishing genres and the way that I really love speculative fiction. I was like, I am really interested in having an agent who is queer and Asian and who also has experience working with more speculative literary fiction that might not necessarily have traditional literary fiction writing background like an MFA or like traditional mentorships. Writing mentorships or fellowships. So yeah, I think DongWon and just like knowing that they were interested and knowing that they were reading it, and then I queried, but again, like I felt most comfortable with DongWon. So they were very supportive in the manuscript and yeah.
I think, to be honest, when I started writing in 2020, I did not imagine in 2023, this would be my life. I am very happy that it did. And I'm very happy that Chlorine came to be and I'm proud of myself. And I'm just thankful for anyone who joined along for the ride, whether they got the book from the library, or came to an event, or bought the book. Because I don't know, I mean, I think reading and writing, and books bring us all closer together and stories in general. Writing feels right for right now (Laughs).
TT: I love that. I fully agree. But that’s amazing. That almost feels — cause I know publishing is sometimes so slow. A typical, minimum is two years. So what you went through is almost kind of like a whirlwind, your whole experience.
JS: Yeah, I was stressed, and it was also very slow. It was a very strange experience.
TT: I bet. I also read that you grew up as a competitive swimmer for over a decade and that played a huge inspiration in writing Chlorine. I'm curious, because, I can't, I can't swim. I am scared of the water, all that stuff. But I wanted to know, what do you love and don't love about the water and swimming in general?
JS: Oh, what a sweet question. That's a very sweet question. I appreciate that question, thank you, as an interviewer, because most people ask about the personal aspects, but your question was very tender and caring. Thank you for that!
I love the water. I love being in the water. I feel very confident in the water. I especially love being in open bodies of natural water. Now I just, I feel like a mermaid as you could say, but it feels very freeing in a way that being on land might not to me and my body. I will say competitive swimming itself, I think maybe bringing in the competitive aspect of it, I know that the sheer smell of chlorine brings me back in a way that I don't know is necessarily always having good feelings. But the act of swimming itself minus the competitiveness is still very rewarding and very beautiful to me. And I'm always, especially when the summer gets warmer, seeking bodies of water. But the fact of competitive athletics in general is very degrading in a lot of ways especially as you’re coming of age. And I hope that came out in the novel. And I hope that the discipline and the rigor required of a competitive athlete also came through in the novel.
I understand the mermaid fixation and like the mermaid interest in the book, but I do think competitive athletics is a huge part of the novel, especially the one that like later feeds into the body horror. So yeah, I just, I really appreciate that question. So thank you.
TT: Of course. I was just curious because like, again, I can't swim. I love water though. I love swimming. I just can't swim like that. So I was just, I was just intrigued because, for somebody who has spent so much time swimming, competitively or not, you have to be obsessed with it, right? So I was just curious. Funny you mentioned mermaids, because my next question is about the mermaid thing. Similar to obsessions, I grew up loving mermaids. As a child, every time I was taking a bath or was in a swimming pool, I thought I was Ariel and all this stuff. So similar to you know, Ren Yu, the main character, I had read all the myths from all over around the world. So for you, as a person and as a writer, what is it about mermaids that intrigued you? And why did it make sense to have mermaids as sort of the central fantasy creature for this book?
JS: Yeah, um, I love weird queer transcendence. I love reclaiming the monstrous. I love this idea that a human might not necessarily be a born human, whether they are perceived that way or whether they themselves think that way. And I think the mermaid is a very fascinating creature because there are myths from around the world. And no matter which culture you look at through time, there's always this sort of monstrous feminine or monstrous sort of creature that comes from the sea. And there are parallel threads that the mermaid does, whether they're seducing the sailors, or marrying the sailors, or just frolicking in the water, having fun. There are forms of mermaids in every single culture. So I think the aspect of this being that lives half in the water, half in the land, that has captured people's hearts and interests for so long, I think that's a very fascinating thing and something that can be carried throughout. But I do think for the main character in the book, it's less about the mermaids and more about just that weird queer transcendence that she so desperately craves out of her human body, which has frankly brought her a lot of struggle and pain and the body horror. And the way that she's achieving that transcendence, in my head it’s about the mermaids, but it's also about, like, leaving awful humanity behind.
TT: Yes, yes, I totally got that while reading. It was so brilliant. In the process of writing this book, like, I'd imagine, there's been quite a number of books in recent years in both the YA and adult fiction space and even literary space, you could say to an extent, have had mermaids or use mermaids to an extent. And then similar for TV shows and movies about mermaids, like right now, a lot of the buzz is going on with the live-action from Disney that is coming out soon. So I’d love your opinion about this, if you have one. Totally okay if you don’t. Did you read any particular mermaid book or watch any mermaid media while writing Chlorine and what do you think these books/film/TV get right or wrong about mermaids?
JS: I don't want to say what they get right or wrong, because everybody has their different ideas of what a mermaid can be. I will say, rather than right or wrong, I think it's very beautiful that there are so many different iterations of mermaids throughout all these different stories. And the book that I referenced a lot, it's in the acknowledgments, I'm just pulling it out, but the book I referenced for mermaid research was The Penguin Book of Mermaids by Cristina Bacchilega and Marie Alohalani Brown. And the book was very respectful about collecting mermaid mythologies throughout cultures, throughout histories. And that just provided a lot of vantage point for me to see all the different ways that mermaids could come to be rather than just like the traditional Disney Western version that we've been fed.
And so I do think again the fact that mermaids keep going back into popular culture, the fact that so many people have so many different ideas of what it can be, whether it’s like super campy and fun, or body horror, or it’s like this beautiful sort of myth, or frankly even in a logo in Starbucks. It's like, I don't know, it's just like a very beautiful story that has a very beautiful creature that has captured people's hearts. And I think that's a very beautiful thing. Again, if we read stories to not feel alone, to feel connected to others, the fact that a myth like a mermaid has been continually brought back shows that we are coming closer together through stories and myths.
TT: I love that. That's beautiful. Oh my gosh. I wish I could attend one of your book launches. If it was like closer (Laughs).
JS: (Laughs) Wait, are you in California or Atlanta?
TT: Atlanta, Atlanta.
JS: Oh okay. Hopefully one day in the future.
TT: Another thing about your book that I really loved was something that spoke to me, like a theme. The main character Ren calls herself a person fish and often refers to her ideal sense of, or higher being, like what she wants to transcend into, which is a mermaid. And through both that metaphor and the literality of Ren being a mermaid in Chlorine, she pushes herself to great lengths to achieve what she wants and aspires, even at a great cost to her. So in essence, here's a lot of this theme of ambition and being pushed to, you have this goal, but you're also being pushed to achieve it at, you know, great cost to yourself. So I wanted to know what your feelings are about ambition in general. I imagine it's complicated.
JS: Interesting question. Wow. I've done a lot of interviews and after a certain point, a lot of the questions start to sound similar, but like, you're coming. I really appreciate this. Thank you. I think on a personal level, ambition is hard because I am an ambitious person and I'm constantly trying to figure out the cost of it and how much I want to lose out on the things that bring me a lot of love and care and joy and tenderness because ambition is frankly often times on the opposite side of that. I think for Ren Yu herself, her ambition is to be an amazing competitive swimmer. Her ambition is to be an amazing mermaid, a beautiful amazing mermaid that can swim away. Her ambition is to be a great teammate, a great friend, possibly a great lover, a great daughter. But in a lot of ways she fails all the time. But the fact that she's trying her best and trying her hardest to achieve those things and maybe, and in the end, I mean, I can't reveal the ending, but the ending, she does sort of achieve one of those goals. I think she should be proud of herself. And I think I should be proud of myself. And I think you should be proud of yourself. I think we should all be proud of ourselves because I don't know, Ren Yu knows that humankind, it's a very sad existence in a lot of ways. It's a very hard existence and we can't ambition our way out of that sadness, but at the end of the day, the tenderness and the love, especially between Ren and Kathy, Ren and her mother, like that is what keeps Ren human, even if she doesn't want to admit it.
TT: I love that. I love that. And I love that you mentioned a little bit about your ambitions as a writer. Because I was curious, have you ever seen, I'm sure you know who Octavia Butler is. Have you seen her journals? Where she has several, I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's like she has several pages where she lists out all of her goals and ambitions, like becoming a best-selling writer. And then there's this page where she's like, I'm going to make people feel, I'm going to make people like, you know, respond to my writing in this way. She underlines them really strongly. And she kind of, people were like, oh, she manifested this kind of motivational affirmations to herself. And, you know, when I saw that, I was like, I thought that was so inspiring. And these days, again going back to the ambition thing, these days it feels like writing as a career, and you could argue since the beginning of when the novel was created, that writing is becoming more and more precarious as a career. But yet, despite that, published writers still persist. And in your case, you talked a little bit about it, if you could elaborate: what are your specific great ambitions as a writer? What would they be like? Essentially, this is, if you want to, you can use the space to kind of put the words out there. And I don't know, maybe they might manifest Octavian Butler style.
JS: Yeah, yeah. If I'm going to be honest, I have no interest in becoming a career writer. I think my agent can frame it like that. My editor can frame it like that. Other people can frame it like that. But I, again, like books and making art, and being an artist and being a writer is so life-sustaining for me that to turn it into a career, to frame it as this ambitious writing thing, writing career. For my preservation, I can't do that. And frankly, the friends I've made, because they are my friends, they're not networking connections, they're my friends, my writing group is my writing family, those connections to me are so sustainable, life-sustaining and beautiful to me that I just, I simply cannot view them as industry people to me because I can't. I feel too connected to them to do that to me. Not to sound like a broken record, but books bring me closer to other people's stories, bring us all closer together. And going through the publishing journey was so difficult for me knowing that this very meaningful, life-sustaining piece of work and any future pieces of work because I do want to keep writing. I do want to keep writing books, even if I cannot, for my own mental health, frame it as a career sort of thing. The publishing journey was very difficult for me because I had to learn how to market. I had to learn how to sell and not to make. And that to me was very, very painful because the selling takes away from the time and care that the making requires. And yeah, again, that was very painful for me because at my core, I'm an artist, I'm not a seller. I mean, I do want to keep writing books. I want to write many books. I want to write many stories. But for my own mental health and practice, I cannot continue it as a career and a selling sort of thing.
TT: Yeah, absolutely. And I imagine that mental framework will help you kind of keep this practice and this art and this discipline sustainable. It'll be more sustainable that way, because then it's like, I look at other writers who, you know, you would consider as career writers, and they’re pumping out books and I totally understand because sometimes it’s their income, it’s their bread and butter, but I’d imagine you’d run into burnout very fast when you treat [a book] as a product instead of as a piece of art.
JS: I do want to be clear. I didn't come from wealth. I have a day job. I understand the realities of needing to sell your work because we need money, especially if you didn't come from wealth or generational wealth. I understand that. It's just for my own mental health, I cannot put writing and my artistic practice into that bucket of making money. Even though in the end, I did, because I went through publishing, because I will again go through publishing, because I am again doing an interview to sell a book (Laughs). I understand these realities. I just think there’s a way to strike a balance in my head and I just want to continue doing that. And I love Octavia Butler so much. I really do. I love her work. I especially love Fledgling. It’s just if I find for myself focusing on how many copies will sell, if it will become a bestseller, it’s a bit futile for me. I would rather just focus on how the readers feel and if the book connects with the people that it needs to connect with because in the end, that's what matters to me.
TT: We mentioned earlier in the interview right that Chlorine is also incredibly queer and sapphic and it wasn't just like the aspect of Ren longing for another girl, but also like the whole book, right? And every aspect exuded queerness. It's like you mentioned, it was about this sort of queer transcendence, which I love. And if you could elaborate a little bit more about [it]. For example, I read a lot of queer books as well, mostly in the YA space, and a little bit in the fantasy space. And there's often awareness [that it] can be packaged as sort of like an identity marker like this person has this thing, [this book] has like representation and therefore, it feels more like an outside description. I don't know how to describe it, but it’s more incidental. When I was reading your book, it felt very intentional in a way, every aspect, even when it doesn't feel obvious just felt intentionally and inherently queer. So I wanted to ask how you did that, or was it super intentional in the sense of oh, this is how I'm going to do it on a craft and technical level, or was it natural because you're a queer person and it just felt like it came out if that makes sense.
JS: I have gotten similar questions and sometimes I struggle to answer because I am a queer person, but in a lot of ways I don't think about queerness and gender, for example, actively, not because I don't. Because I am queer. I think if I had to classify my gender I would probably, I mean, I prefer she or they, honestly any pronouns. My friend says it's a gender rejection more than anything else. The majority of my friends are queer. The straight cis friends that I do have left, they're immense allies, they fully accept who I am, and after two decades of hiding certain aspects of me at 26, I just, like, I simply cannot hide anymore, that shit is exhausting. I'm coming into my full self, like, no matter the situation, because I cannot hide myself. So I think when I'm writing, I write queer I suppose because that's who I am and that's how I view the world. But when other people tell me this, it surprises me because this is just how I think. And this is how many of the people close to me just are that to be reminded that it is queer and that it's different is a surprise because this is just who I am. Yeah, I don't view it as something that's different or a surprise. And I don't think many of my friends do either at this point, just because it's like, with us. And we feel safe, which is a gift in itself to feel safe enough to be yourself. Yeah, I didn't intend for [the book] to be categorized in the queer genre, but I understand why it is because it is and because I am. But again, yeah, I don't view it as something that's special or different.
TT: When I was writing these interview questions, I knew I had to ask you this question because we are both this. But I know you're a BTS fan. You wrote a beautiful essay for Teen Vogue on your relationship with art and writing and how BTS' music really spoke to you. So I have to ask, were there any direct or indirect influences or inspiration from BTS on Chlorine?
JS: Oh my god. I mean, again, like, thank you (Laughs). I mean, I think the Teen Vogue essay said a lot about it. I do think in general, I'm an artist. It is very important to me to pay homage and to remember and to keep track of the artistic influences that influence my own piece of work, which I think is something that Namjoon actually does very, very well. And that BTS, frankly, has always done. You can see it in the hip-hop file lyrics of one of their first albums. And the fact that Namjoon, he's my bias. The fact that he is constantly posting about fine arts. He wanted to be a poet before he wanted to be a rapper and again the way he pays homage to these artistic influences no matter the genre or language that influences his own work. Like that to me is so important and that is partially what I want to do in the future, always remembering that writing is not just writing it's paying attention to all these other different art forms that might inform it that might help keep you alive, which Namjoon also I think has spoken about. And that to me is so important.
TT: I love that. I love that. And I love that your bias is RM. Because for a hot minute there, I was like is it Jimin? Because you had wanted the sweater1. (Laughs). But RM makes total sense.
JS: (Laughs). Yeah, I love him. Who’s your bias?
TT: Yoongi.
JS: Ah, yes.
TT: I’m seeing him twice over. I’m seeing him in Chicago and in Oakland, his last US stop, because I’m a simp.
JS: Oh my god, I’m so excited for you.
TT: And [my seats] are at like two different sections. And the Oakland one is closer. It’s like right next to the stage. So I’m literally about to, like, lose my mind.
JS: Oh my god, it will be the best experience, truly.
TT: I can't wait. Um, okay, so last question. Chlorine is about finding who your truest self is and being brave enough to live it intentionally on purpose. At least that's what I kind of took away from it. So to end on a high note, do you think who you are right now and what you've experienced as a person but also as a writer so far exemplify your truest self?
JS: Yes, I think so. Yes, absolutely. I feel way more me, which is all that I can ask for, like just being me. And I think the true sense of self... Sorry, my car is beeping. The true sense of self might change, but I think I'm always going to be moving toward a truer sense of self the way that I hope we all do.
TT: I love that. Beautiful.
JS: Thank you for asking. Oh my God, Teresa, this is so lovely. Thank you. Finally, a BTS question! (Laughs).
TT: It's the most important question of this whole interview. It’s crucial! (Laughs).
JS: Totally (Laughs).
TT: Jade, thank you so much for, one, writing such an amazing brilliant book. It's been so exciting to watch it kind of, roll out into the world, because I've also seen people, like on Twitter, like respond. It's freaking amazing and you deserve all the love and accolades and all of that and, it's really inspiring. And thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview with me.
JS: Yeah, thank you so much for the time and for the amazing questions. Truly. Thank you, Teresa. You're incredible.
Back in April 2022, I was in Las Vegas for the BTS Permission to Dance concert and posted on Twitter that I was standing in the merch line. Jade had messaged me asking if I could buy this Jimin sweater for them and they’d pay me back. It was funny.
Share this post